Interesting bit of information by raistlin (Page 1 of 2)


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raistlin
Whenever I have a case in front of me where the defendant has had dealings with the DVLA, I, and all my colleagues, tell them never to send any documents to DVLA without recorded delivery.

Having returned my V5c/3 recently for VeeKay, I was surprised to find that I was being asked to pay the tax for this month.

I checked on the Royal Mail web-site and my recorded delivery hasn't yet arrived... first class mail - over a week... but that's a different story.

I phoned up DVLA and bluffed them a bit saying that Royal Mail had the letter signed for by them a few days ago to which I got the answer:-

"That can't be right. We get so many recorded delivery letters that we have a dispensation and we don't have to sign for them. They are delivered in the same way as ordinary mail"

That little bombshell has caused me some considerable concern. Not for my case as I had the whole process witnessed by another Magistrate, but for not realizing that "Signed for" clearly doesn't mean what it says, with all the potential for trouble that raises.
Paul

Cogito ergo sum... maybe?

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Posted 03 Apr 2015, 18:14 #1 

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Trebor
Thats appalling the very least the PO should do is tell you when you are sending instead they just take your money, I might apply for a dispensation not to open any bills
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Posted 03 Apr 2015, 18:27 #2 


PaulT
So Royal Mail is taking money under false pretenses.
Paul

That apart Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play

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Posted 03 Apr 2015, 18:42 #3 

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raistlin
What concerns me more is that a recorded delivery item is given a very high credence in Court.
Paul

Cogito ergo sum... maybe?

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Posted 03 Apr 2015, 19:08 #4 

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Dave
Who gives them the dispensation?

Sounds like they need to have extra staff just to be sitting there signing for things. They get enough money from us all, so I don't think this would be unreasonable!

Posted 03 Apr 2015, 21:01 #5 


PaulT
So what happens with Special Delivery - presumably it features nothing special and just gets delivered with the ordinary mail.
Paul

That apart Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play

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Posted 04 Apr 2015, 15:47 #6 

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Borg Warner
Someone's on very dodgy ground there I would have thought. Seems to me the DVLA can do what the hell it likes? The onus is always on "us" the motorist to prove what we have done yet it appears "they" don't have to prove anything or take any responsibility.

Do you ever say "I'll see you in (my) Court" Paul?

Gary M.

Posted 07 Apr 2015, 10:55 #7 

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Dave
According to this post from Money Saving Expert forums (dated 2012) they "bulk sign" for batches of mail which may or may not include Recorded Deliveries. The opinion seems to be that you need to go Special Delivery to get individual items signed for.

Posted 07 Apr 2015, 11:24 #8 

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raistlin
So it appears that Royal Mail are in breach of contract because they cannot prove that an individual item was signed for.

I feel a little Judicial investigation might be called for ;)
Paul

Cogito ergo sum... maybe?

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Posted 07 Apr 2015, 12:30 #9 

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Dave
Go for it Paul! Awaiting the outcome with interest! :)

Posted 07 Apr 2015, 12:58 #10 


PaulT
Do not mess about Paul, put the black cap on.
Paul

That apart Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play

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Posted 07 Apr 2015, 15:00 #11 

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Trebor
And can you stop them selling drivers personal address details to parking companies whilst you are at it Paul !
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Planning is an unnatural process, much better to just get on with things, that way failure comes as a complete surprise instead of being preceeded by a period of worry and doubt

Posted 11 Apr 2015, 06:16 #12 

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raistlin
As an addendum to this.

I was chairing a Court today in which a woman was hauled up for not informing the DVLA of a change of ownership.

The prosecutor maintained that, although she had the recorded delivery slip, the tracking number showed that the letter had not been delivered to DVLA as it hadn't been signed for and therefore it was the woman's responsibility to ensure delivery, and to follow it up, which she said she had done, by telephone, and of course, DVLA denied any knowledge of either the letter or the phone calls.

I informed the prosecutor of the so called dispensation regarding signing for items and suggested that, in such a case, the prosecution would have a difficult time proving the case beyond reasonable doubt.

The prosecutor asked for a short adjournment and some 15 minutes later, after a phone call or two, returned to my Court and formally offered no evidence allowing the trial to be thrown out.

The poor woman was in tears, and I have to say her solicitor was somewhat taken by surprise as well, but was certainly swift enough to apply for a Defendant's costs order, which the Bench was happy to allow :)

Some time later, when there were no members of the public in Court, the prosecutor admitted to having had no knowledge of the cosy little arrangement between Royal Snail and the DVLA.

As I said in my summing up, the whole purpose of a recorded delivery item was to ensure that IT had been received as an INDIVIDUAL entity rather than as one of an anonymous bag full of similar items so that a conviction based upon such evidence was clearly unsafe and would not survive an appeal.

Cat... pigeons, now introduced to each other :lol:

I wonder whether anything will happen ;)
Paul

Cogito ergo sum... maybe?

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Posted 17 Apr 2015, 18:44 #13 

Last edited by raistlin on 17 Apr 2015, 18:48, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
raistlin
Trebor wrote:And can you stop them selling drivers personal address details to parking companies whilst you are at it Paul !


'Nuff said about that I think Rob ;)
Paul

Cogito ergo sum... maybe?

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Posted 17 Apr 2015, 18:45 #14 

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Duncan
The whole record delivery thing has become a bit of a nonsense these days. It has become VERY common for the delivery operative to sign for it themselves.
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Posted 17 Apr 2015, 19:04 #15 


PaulT
I would have thought that the woman and her solicitor were very surprised by the Chairman of the Bench assisting the defence - but rightly so.

Quite right the defence costs should have been paid by the prosecution, which is the DVLA which is you and me because of what the DVLA does not do.

Needs a motoring journalist on one of the 'dailies' to pick this up to provide others with the defence - the only problem it is a defence for those who do not bother sending off the document.
Paul

That apart Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play

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Posted 18 Apr 2015, 19:57 #16 

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raistlin
PaulT wrote:the only problem it is a defence for those who do not bother sending off the document.


Not really Paul. The defendant would have to possess a recorded delivery tracking number and prove that the item had not been signed for by reference to the Royal Snail web-site.
Paul

Cogito ergo sum... maybe?

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Posted 18 Apr 2015, 21:19 #17 


PaulT
Wondered who would spot that first :gmc:
Paul

That apart Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play

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Posted 19 Apr 2015, 18:38 #18 


Bolin
Very interesting stuff.

Paul, in relation to your last point, wouldn't a Certificate of Posting be good enough evidence, rather than needing to pay the extra for the ineffective 'Signed For' option?

Posted 22 Apr 2015, 22:39 #19 

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raistlin
No,

because the offence makes the individual responsible for ensuring delivery, not posting.
Paul

Cogito ergo sum... maybe?

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Posted 23 Apr 2015, 06:48 #20 


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