Fan Resistor Upgrade by Arctic (Page 3 of 4)


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JohnDotCom
You beat me there easily just the rear of garage and a 15x10 shed filled with bits new old and grave bound for me.
Did have a Gearbox and Engine in Dinng room but that had to be moved or well that's why I'm still breathing because I did.
John

"My lovely car now sold onto a very happy new owner.
I still love this marque and I will still be around, preferred selling to breaking, as a great runner and performer"

Posted 09 Jun 2011, 22:10 #41 

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Arctic
(Trader)
JohnDotCom wrote:Had a look earlier at box pictures (2005 diesel)and it looks nothing like your box.
I will try to copy them across and post up box internals for diesel.


Please do and i hope i have not been done over by this chap as he asured me it was off a diesel.i asked so may question before i purchsed this too,link below
http://tinyurl.com/3kjvzsv

Posted 09 Jun 2011, 23:30 #42 

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Arctic
(Trader)
Duncan wrote:OK, thought about it again, and I'm pretty sure that's from a petrol.

The two big thick black are main power supply.

The other two thick wires coming out of the box are low and hi outputs, the medium speed relay is disconnected from it's relay.

The big brown on the fan is ground.

To run the fan, you need to connect the thin wires to ground. Each wire is for low medium or high, though no idea which is which as the colours don't match.

I have to say, the wiring of the fan itself is suspicious, I would have expecte black to brown, not red to brown. This fan might actually run the wrong way as wired.

All of this is pretty irrelevant as if I'm right, the control box is no good for your car. However you should be able to connect that fan to your existing control box to make it work. Photo's of the inside of a diesel one would help confirm what connects to what.

hI Duncan.
Please take a look at this link i think it is Jules ? and the wires seem to be the same
http://tinyurl.com/5vr9qws

Posted 09 Jun 2011, 23:42 #43 

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Arctic
(Trader)
Duncan wrote:And another couple of things.
I think someone has been playing with this, as the control box has the date 2002 inside which I think is way before two speed fans with a resistor. Anyone care to comment? It struck me as odd that the third relay is inside the box, unused.

The colours don't correspond properly to the wiring diagrams I have, though they still show the three speed fan. From what I can work out, the two thick black wires are the +12v input. The brown on the fan is earth. Then there will need to be some other wires connected to switch the relays on, though difficult to say which as I can't match them to my diagrams. If it is for a diesel, this won't work anyway as it needs a square wave from the engine ECU (Engine Control Unit) to drive it.


Hi Duncan i thought brown is live and red is live ? also could you please explain what a square wave is ? the wires seem to be also like this link from best of british
http://tinyurl.com/67pxnt4

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 00:00 #44 

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Duncan
I can't see inside the box, and that's the important bit. Can't really make out the colours of the thin wires either.

Regarding the red / black. Yes it looks like Jules's is wired the same way, so I wouldn't worry as it seems the same. Don't rely too much on colour coding alone though. Brown is live in mains cabling, battery feed in British automotive wiring colours, and ground in German wiring colours. The fan is made by a German company, and is from a German car originally. However the motor itself may be wired with the no automotive convention for DC with red / black = pos / neg.
Image

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 07:00 #45 

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Arctic
(Trader)
This is now getting all the more confusing i was in the thinking of buy replacment bumper off fan off swap over after fitting new gold up grade but seems not.

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 08:38 #46 

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Arctic
(Trader)
Duncan wrote:I can't see inside the box, and that's the important bit. Can't really make out the colours of the thin wires either.

Regarding the red / black. Yes it looks like Jules's is wired the same way, so I wouldn't worry as it seems the same. Don't rely too much on colour coding alone though. Brown is live in mains cabling, battery feed in British automotive wiring colours, and ground in German wiring colours. The fan is made by a German company, and is from a German car originally. However the motor itself may be wired with the no automotive convention for DC with red / black = pos / neg.

Hi Duncan
Thank you for helping i have now taken some closer pics of inside the box hoping this may help with identifying the colours of the thins wires ETC.
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Would not my own box contain the same wires therefore just unplug from this and replace mine in their place, along with the clip connectors such as in Jules photo ?
Cheers Arctic.

(gleened from other side.)
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s ... 943&page=2

The thin wires are identical between 3 & 2 speed control boxes so they remain compatible with ECU outputs.


The thick brown PLUS 12V goes straight to Motor Red.
The Grey from the middle relay feeds the resistor (giving LOW speed)
The Red (switched NEG!) wire from large relay goes to other side of resistor, where there is also a joint to the Motor NEG.
The Large relay simply "shorts" out the resistor giving FULL speed



Just the output (thick wires) differ in the later control boxes.
Also note the end small relay is connected electronically but the output is unused

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 10:07 #47 

Last edited by Arctic on 14 Jun 2011, 10:14, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Duncan
Arctic wrote:Hi Duncan
Thank you for helping i have now taken some closer pics of inside the box hoping this may help with identifying the colours of the thins wires ETC.

Would not my own box contain the same wires therefore just unplug from this and replace mine in their place, along with the clip connectors such as in Jules photo ?
Cheers Arctic.
.
Yes, didn't I suggest this? Must have been late, sorry I meant to.


(gleened from other side.)
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s ... 943&page=2

The thin wires are identical between 3 & 2 speed control boxes so they remain compatible with ECU outputs.


yes but diesels and petrols are still different.

The thick brown PLUS 12V goes straight to Motor Red.
The Grey from the middle relay feeds the resistor (giving LOW speed)
The Red (switched NEG!) wire from large relay goes to other side of resistor, where there is also a joint to the Motor NEG.
The Large relay simply "shorts" out the resistor giving FULL speed

Fair enough, Jules does them for a living. But that's not what the Rover circuit diagrams show. On them, the plus goes into the box, via the relays to the fan, and the other side of the fan is ground. I can tell you no more than what the circuits I've got say. However if you read the rest of Jules comments, he does explain this, in that they switch differently between old boxes and new boxes.


Just the output (thick wires) differ in the later control boxes.
Also note the end small relay is connected electronically but the output is unused

With all the cost savings of project drive, I'm surprised they wasted a relay, but we live and learn. I still haven't seen a picture of the PCB (Printed Circuit Board) to say whether it has electronics on it to confirm it's a diesel one. The fact that the box has the letters PWM on the lid might suggest it is a diesel one. If so, then you should be able to replace the thin wires with yours. The Rover circuit diagrams show yellow grey and Blue/Red which it looks like you have. The Petrols have different colours. That said, the Rover diagrams don't show that two speed system so I can't be sure. But what Jules has said is the thick wires are different. Now I know that, I can't tell you what to wire where, as I only have circuits for the older type.

For reference, the grey wire is the PWM (square wave) from the engine ECU. The Blue / red comes from the aircon trinary switch. The yellow appears to be a power supply from a relay switched by the engine ECU.
Image

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 16:18 #48 

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Arctic
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Hi Duncan.
I really appreciate the time and effort you are putting into helping, but because i am not great with electrics i am very wary to start taking the bummper off before i know where i am with all this, i have still not checked the 2 speed on the spare battery yet as i am unsure which wire i need to put to the + and the - took these pice below.
Image
i am presuming i link the brown to the +pos and the gray to the -neg
Image

Also for comparison here are some pics of how Keith wired a kenlowe and his link http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s ... hp?t=10867

before the change over
Image

After the change over.
Image

Image

Now i am also presuming when i take my 3 speed fan ? off it wil have four wire coming from it as below. i hope this is not confusing you because it is me :em: :roll:
Image

Also Duncan what is this (I still haven't seen a picture of the PCB)and how would i take the pic if i have one or is it the other side to the panel in the black box.

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 18:10 #49 

Last edited by Arctic on 14 Jun 2011, 10:22, edited 4 times in total.

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Duncan
Regarding the PCB: it's inside the black box. It's the board that the thin wires are connected to. Basically, I need to see the other side, which I think is what you are asking about, and calling a panel. It's sort of greeny yellow brown.

Do you know whether Keiths was for a diesel or a petrol. I suspect a diesel as he was (is) also the FBH (Fuel burning heater.) meister. That would confirm yours is a diesel one in spite of my suspicion.

What's worse, even the pictures of the 'before' don't correspond properly to the circuit diagrams given in the Rover workshop manuals, so the circuit diagrams are proving worse than useless because it means I'm giving you duff advice.

Do you think it can wait until the Nano? If we use your existing relay box, it doesn't matter if the one with the new fan is right or not. Once I can get a multimeter on the thing, and look at what connects where on the big multiplug it will become clearer.

We can check the fan itself by disconnecting it from the box that came with it: disconnect the thick wires that go to the fan and resistor, three of them. If Jules is correct (and he is experienced in this) then connect the brown that goes to red to the plus. The wire with the resistor in it connects to negative for low speed. The other wire connects to negative to give high speed. Watch your fingers, and don't allow anything to get into the fan for gawds sake. In particular it will suck that gravel drive through and make a mess of something or lots of things.

BTW, there are a fair few technical advisors who are there to help over on the OC, as I think you are active there too. Surely one of them knows about this? Might also be worth asking Jules himself as he has direct experience of this.

The problem with testing the fan is I'm not sure about the differences to the new system. You can find out whether the fan itself is OK, by disconnecting it from the black box. I'm struggling to give you reliable advice, now it's clear the circuit diagrams are wrong in so many ways.
Image

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 19:09 #50 

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Duncan
Just an afterthought: please don't think I don't want to answer the questions, but I'm conscious the information I thought I had is not accurate. I do need to see what the situation actually is before I can be sure.
Image

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 19:27 #51 

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JohnDotCom
Not only that my box looks very different to one in photo perhaps they updated it?
Away until; at least Saturday week now so cannot do anything till then.
Give Jules a ring he should be abler to help and keeps New ones in stock both of Kenlowe and MGR original.
John

"My lovely car now sold onto a very happy new owner.
I still love this marque and I will still be around, preferred selling to breaking, as a great runner and performer"

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 19:29 #52 

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Arctic
(Trader)
Hi Thanks for all the help if i buy one from jules it is in effect made know sense in me tracking down the two speed, i think i am going to wait until the nano still buy the gold resistor incase, i mean after all i have driven the car now for 8 months and had no trouble, i only came across this no low speed on the fan when one late night i decided to browse the how to's over on the other side. even with my car parked up if i switch on air con it is really cold even more so when i am driving, i have had no over heating etc, and if my fan is not working why not, i have also done the paper clip test ( Trinary switch) and the fan does not run at any speed
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s ... hp?t=35577

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 23:04 #53 

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Arctic
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Do you think it can wait until the Nano? If we use your existing relay box, it doesn't matter if the one with the new fan is right or not. Once I can get a multimeter on the thing, and look at what connects where on the big multiplug it will become clearer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes i can wait so am i right in thiking that it is the fan motor i really need never mind the black control box as mine can be adapted yes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can check the fan itself by disconnecting it from the box that came with it: disconnect the thick wires that go to the fan and resistor, three of them. If Jules is correct (and he is experienced in this) then connect the brown that goes to red to the plus. The wire with the resistor in it connects to negative for low speed. The other wire connects to negative to give high speed. Watch your fingers, and don't allow anything to get into the fan for gawds sake. In particular it will suck that gravel drive through and make a mess of something or lots of things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right i get that and i will most certaily test it right away from gravel in a safe place and remove these wires from the panel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with testing the fan is I'm not sure about the differences to the new system. You can find out whether the fan itself is OK, by disconnecting it from the black box. I'm struggling to give you reliable advice, now it's clear the circuit diagrams are wrong in so many ways.[/quote]
All this is helping as i am slowly learning and to which i am grateful cheers Arctic.

Posted 10 Jun 2011, 23:24 #54 

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takestock
As said before we can set aside as long as it takes at the nano, I am not at my pc for another week but to test the fan from memory on the two speed you connect the brown wire that changes to red to the pos side of the battery. Connecting the black wire that becomes red to the neg will operate the fan at full speed.
Disconnecting this and connecting the black wire that runs through the resistor to the neg will run the fan at slow speed.
Photobucket = Tossers

Dave....

Posted 11 Jun 2011, 11:28 #55 

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Arctic
(Trader)
Hi Dave
i have ordered a gold resistor from jules, i still yet have to test the fan/motor but as you said fingers crossed you have not seen one that does not work if the resistor had failed i also do not know yet if this resistor as/had failed, was going to test fan today but rain stops play for now, i also got this reply from Jules regayding this 2 speed fan .
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Grey to Neg will test the resistor.
99% chance it's duff and motor won't turn!

To bypass the resistor to test motor directly, connect Red from relay contact to Neg and motor red to Pos
Motor should run but it looks very rusty!

2 speed Control box may be ok but transfer the thin wires and plugs from your 3 speed box


The 2 cut thick black wires need to go to thick black (neg) at plug end.
Thick brown from motor should go to thick brown at plug end.

Above will be quicker than converting your 3 speed box to a 2 speed.

Posted 11 Jun 2011, 13:36 #56 

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Duncan
takestock wrote:As said before we can set aside as long as it takes at the nano, I am not at my pc for another week but to test the fan from memory on the two speed you connect the brown wire that changes to red to the pos side of the battery. Connecting the black wire that becomes red to the neg will operate the fan at full speed.
Disconnecting this and connecting the black wire that runs through the resistor to the neg will run the fan at slow speed.


Thanks Dave. That seems to tie up with the advice that the polarity changes for the two speed with resistor from the old three speed.
Image

Posted 11 Jun 2011, 13:44 #57 

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Arctic
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Hi
Dave/Duncan
I managed to test the fan today after making this set up a frame for the fan to fasten to so it would not get damaged or damage me while doing so. I have removed the wires from the control box so the panel can not get damaged.more to follow as am tired so bed is calling.
Image1

Image2

Posted 12 Jun 2011, 00:31 #58 

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Arctic
(Trader)
The fan game resumes after setting up my makeshift templet for the fan, which is now bolted to it for safety i made a few videos testing with resitor connected, and also by passing the resistor which i was advised would most certainly be goosed, take a look please excuse the narrator :em: :lol: :lol: after all he is a total amature :gmc:
http://youtu.be/t8Z08R1jAuc

My second atempt
http://youtu.be/I9hA2-0FvEA

My third go at presenting by this time i gave up because i could not keep a straight face :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: my misses was in stitches and said i seriously need help and not only with the fan. :lol: :lol: but at least the fan works and i now only need to get a gold resistor which is enroute from Jules :hail: then all i have to do is work out which wires go where, then fit it to the car,
http://youtu.be/j3O5wDZSjUQ

Posted 12 Jun 2011, 21:33 #59 

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Arctic
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[quote="Duncan"]Regarding the PCB: it's inside the black box. It's the board that the thin wires are connected to. Basically, I need to see the other side, which I think is what you are asking about, and calling a panel. It's sort of greeny yellow brown.

HI Duncan managed to clean and get round to photographing the other side of the PCB just a few below. hope they help some way cheers Arctic.
Image1

Image2

Image3

Image4

Posted 12 Jun 2011, 22:46 #60 

Last edited by Arctic on 13 Jun 2011, 10:19, edited 1 time in total.


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